tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post6832941494856996366..comments2023-09-04T01:31:11.524-07:00Comments on Adventures in nonsense: The CNHC wishes to place on formal record their thanks to Simon PerrySimonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14195003492084088327noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-55329027632148403672009-12-09T03:55:27.567-08:002009-12-09T03:55:27.567-08:00I call POE on the Kunz.
But well done, nonetheless...I call POE on the Kunz.<br />But well done, nonetheless...Michael Kingsford Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15610344772081162910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-396797804996504622009-12-08T12:09:29.342-08:002009-12-08T12:09:29.342-08:00Actually these aren't here for propaganda. The...Actually these aren't here for propaganda. There are negative as well as positive studies. We have 168 for you to go through.<br /><br />The kidney study is a double blinded randomized study done to NIH standards. It wasn't about whether improving arterial blood flow is a curative rather it was about the foot to body link. Have you read the whole study or just the abstract? Because this protocol was very cleverly done. <br /><br />I am a little taken back that skeptics seem to be able to cross into other fields make judgment calls. Also I have run into a lot of you that read abstracts and then make decisions. Is that kosher? Or intuitive?<br /><br />I have a biased in favor of reflexology or more to the point that our feet are a part of our nervous system and therefore can be used to influence the body's operating tempo. <br /><br />Are you saying the feet are not a part of the nervous system and therefore have no influence over the body. <br /><br />You are into software. Let me try this out on you. In order to react to our external environment we need an organized response. The nervous system is a schematic like circuitry in a CPU. We need to gather feedback from our surroundings. We also need a mediator, the brain to act as a type of processor. Then we need a systematic feeding forward of information to adjust to the wide variety of changes in the external environment. These muscle spindle organ dynamics are set at a certain operating tempo. New information say from the feet in the form of proprioceptive information such as pressure, stretch and movement is not only going to shift the muscle spindle organ dynamics but also shift the operating tempo of the internal organs. New demands require adjustments of fuel and O2. <br /><br />Right? Or are you in the school that says that incoming sensory information is randomly processed? There is no neural matrix that ties into the muscles and into the ANS. Actually reflexology charts to us are somewhat reflecting the feedforward mechanism of the gamma efferent part of the nervous system. Stress after all is not simply global but acts locally as well. <br /><br />Sorry about the research. It was kind of low priority as I didn't think you would accept the positive studies. But the skeptics always seem to be able to find negative studies. Curious. <br /><br />I object to claims but with the popularity of reflexology it is going to happen. I don't believe for instance in those pads that are supposed to detox your body. But they stick a label on them of reflexology. Can't stop them. <br /><br />But do you really think listing research is a form of making claims if in fact you list both positive and negative studies? <br /><br />I think reflexology is quite astonishing. The feet are sensory/motor servo units that react to pressure, stretch, movement, touch, heat, cold and vibration. <br /><br />After 40,000 years of sensory blindfolds- the shoe those senses are seriously impaired. A little TLC does cause a rapid change in both the ANS and the state of tone throughout the body. <br /><br />Besides it is a great deal of fun.Kevin Kunzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13507881298322771191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-66297452641522527782009-12-07T15:15:45.253-08:002009-12-07T15:15:45.253-08:00Well I've read the first 4. The first wasn'...Well I've read the first 4. The first wasn't blinded, the next two showed no effect and the last one didn't really say whether it worked or not.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195003492084088327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-335921443638000752009-12-07T05:44:52.718-08:002009-12-07T05:44:52.718-08:00http://www.reflexology-research.com/control.htm
S...http://www.reflexology-research.com/control.htm<br /><br />Some quite astonishing claims on Mr. Kunz's site.<br /><br />Not sure about the rigour or validity of the trials, mind. <br /><br />As a layman, they don't ring true, but maybe someone of a more scientific bent can explain why that is.Mary-Lou Stalinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-52126815205635953562009-12-07T02:00:55.630-08:002009-12-07T02:00:55.630-08:00I found this interesting blog concerning reflexolo...I found this interesting blog concerning reflexology research..<br /><br />http://reflexologyresearchproject.blogspot.com/<br /><br /><br />It's quite a good read if you have a spare nanosecond.Sceptic with a knoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-8895447661203257772009-12-06T12:35:48.790-08:002009-12-06T12:35:48.790-08:00@Anonymous, reflexology sceptic
Interesting, but ...@Anonymous, reflexology sceptic<br /><br />Interesting, but (i) I didn't receive your email of the paper so I can't check it, and (ii) it's not relevant. <br /><br />The complaints I made concerned claims to treat disease. This study merely concluded that more blood flows to your kidneys during the foot massage.<br /><br />So assuming this trial was well conducted (which hasn't been established) - it still doesn't mean much.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195003492084088327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-25389252146866255502009-12-06T12:02:05.036-08:002009-12-06T12:02:05.036-08:00@ Jon Bray:
It's from Terry Pratchett's D...@ Jon Bray:<br /><br />It's from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels originally.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-46312496353127144792009-12-06T11:51:49.725-08:002009-12-06T11:51:49.725-08:00I am a reflexology sceptic - but my mind is open e...I am a reflexology sceptic - but my mind is open enough to use google.<br /><br />I have the study, and have emailed the pdf. Here's the abstract:<br /><br />Changes of Renal Blood Flow during Organ-Associated Foot<br />Reflexology Measured by Colour Doppler Sonography<br />Using colour Doppler sonography blood flow changes of the<br />right kidney during foot reflexology were determined in a placebo-<br />controlled, double-blind, randomised study. 32 healthy<br />young adults (17 women, 15 men) were randomly assigned<br />to the verum or placebo group. The verum group received<br />foot reflexology at zones corresponding to the right kidney,<br />the placebo group was treated on other foot zones. Before,<br />during and after foot reflexology the blood flow of three vessels<br />of the right kidney was measured using colour Doppler<br />sonography. Systolic peak velocity and end diastolic peak velocity<br />were measured in cm/s, and the resistive index, a parameter<br />of the vascular resistance, was calculated. The resistive<br />index in the verum group showed a highly significant decrease<br />(p £ 0.001) during and an increase (p = 0.001) after foot<br />reflexology. There was no difference between men and women<br />and no difference between smokers and non-smokers.<br />Verum and placebo group significantly differed concerning alterations<br />of the resistive index both between the measuring<br />points before versus during foot reflexology (p = 0.002) and<br />those during versus after foot reflexology (p = 0.031). The significant<br />decrease of the resistive index during foot reflexology<br />in the verum group indicates a decrease of flow resistance<br />in renal vessels and an increase of renal blood flow. These<br />findings support the hypothesis that organ-associated foot reflexology<br />is effective in changing renal blood flow during therapy.<br />Ó 1999 S. Karger GmbH, Freiburg<br />Fax +49 761 452 07 14 Accessible online at:<br />E-mail kargergmbh@aol.com http://BioMedNet.com/karger<br />www.karger.com<br />Manfred Herold,Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-59008737176565368292009-12-06T01:46:58.912-08:002009-12-06T01:46:58.912-08:00Kunz, I know I speak for many when I say I can'...Kunz, I know I speak for many when I say I can't wait for your evidence.<br /><br />However, I anticipate that it might be a very, very long wait. I'll put my feet up in the meantime...kinboshihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16836933323430093140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-79057530901705701542009-12-05T18:33:46.693-08:002009-12-05T18:33:46.693-08:00Might it be that Kevin Kunz (what a fabulously app...Might it be that Kevin Kunz (what a fabulously appropriate name) might have a vested financial interest in ripping people off because they are credulous and vulnerable?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-3248033440880302482009-12-05T18:30:55.698-08:002009-12-05T18:30:55.698-08:00Sadly however, the CNHC decided that fitness to pr...<i>Sadly however, the CNHC decided that fitness to practice was not impaired because the unjustifiable claims were not made deliberately.</i><br /><br />They were made by accident?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-8075364005419131042009-12-05T12:37:25.809-08:002009-12-05T12:37:25.809-08:00Great Simon. Give me a bit. I am working today. Bu...Great Simon. Give me a bit. I am working today. But I will post what I can.Kevin Kunzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13507881298322771191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-66902693308931382932009-12-05T10:12:58.314-08:002009-12-05T10:12:58.314-08:00Excellent work! Keep it up!
@kearneykdExcellent work! Keep it up!<br /><br />@kearneykdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-63014738633189721222009-12-05T09:13:15.493-08:002009-12-05T09:13:15.493-08:00@Kevin Kunz
Yes, I've looked for trials. Did...@Kevin Kunz<br /><br />Yes, I've looked for trials. Didn't find any that pointed me to the belief that reflexology is efficacious for treating any disease though.<br /><br />Can you put in links please?<br /><br />Yes - you can change my mind if you have evidence.Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14195003492084088327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-59516800031400810132009-12-05T08:57:13.492-08:002009-12-05T08:57:13.492-08:00Closed minded skeptics are easy to come by. Have y...Closed minded skeptics are easy to come by. Have you actually looked at the research involving reflexology or are you just very intuitive knowing what is right and wrong without actually researching it. <br /><br />You assume all CAM practitioners are frauds. They aren't. You assume we are liars we are in genral very good people. Yet your poster you calls me a liar doesn't have the guts to do it without being anonymously. Pathetic and childish. <br /><br />Name calling and opinions aren't really a replacement for the facts. The fact is that there are a number of controlled evidenced based studies on Medline.There are fMRI's, doppler sonograms and other high tech investigations.<br /><br />I don't try to pretend to be a doctor so they are my clientele and not my patients. And btw they aren't all sick therefore theydon't qualify to be called patients. <br /><br />I have a very smart clientele. They are actually far from gullible. They know when to see the doctor and they know when it is appropriate to see me. One of my clients said, "When I go to the doctor I don't know what I will feel like. When I go to you I always know I will feel better. That is what I pay for. <br /><br />Dr. J you make a lot assumptions about me that aren't true. The only claims I make is that reflexology works in the nervous system and that every function and structure that reflexology effects can be explained. <br /><br />I am concerned about the claims that are made about reflexology and have called out people for making those claims. I have gone to the extent of having my lawyer send cease and desist letters when they use my name to promote these claims. <br /><br />You have made your judgements all ready regarding reflexology. I can't open your mind. It is your world view and you will defend no matter what I say. You see the foot as some type of inert object that isn't really wired into the nervous system. You don't see it as a sensory organ that has a direct impact on the ANS. You don't see that the feedback from the foot alters the feedforward going out from the brain to reset the tone or tension level of the body. You don't see that the feet are intimately connected by known neural pathways into internal organs and that the demands of locomotion and survival demand this intimate relationship. You don't see that survival depends on information sharing between each and every body part. <br /><br />Movement intelligence depends on clear communication between all parts of the locomotive system, the brain and the internal organs for integrated activities such as locomotion. <br /><br />I have seen research studies such as kidney doppler sonograms showing that when you work on the reflex area on the foot it causes an increase in blood flow to three arterial feeds to the kidneys. Why hasn't the medical community at least taken a look are this study to see if they can help kidney patients and cut costs at the same time? It was a double blind randomized controlled study done to NIH standards. <br /><br />You would think the medical community would be quite excited by this. It could help a lot of people. <br /><br />Dr. J I am ignoring these other people because they are name callers and opinionated rather than factual. What if you had the facts rather than intuitively assuming "facts"? Would you be capable of changing your mind?<br /><br />Dr. J could you open your mind to the idea that the feet are a participant in the adaptation that take place in response to stress? Could you open your mind to the fact the feet contribute to the overall health of the body? Could you open your mind to the fact that stress is not just an general adaptive syndrome but also quite local, specific adaptations to stress?<br /><br />I do feel sad for people that think the only way to deal with people that don't agree with their worldview is extinction. But let me be clear. Stripped away all the hype and claims about reflexology and you still have a physiological circuitry that is quite useful. Believe or not we are here to stay. And stay we will.Kevin Kunzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13507881298322771191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-22717647405626059352009-12-05T06:31:16.192-08:002009-12-05T06:31:16.192-08:00Re denying others services they desire... is being...Re denying others services they desire... is being lied to a service? Being told you'll be better after a foot rub? Or that you'll feel better? Maybe you will feel better, feeling is so arbitrary. But isn't reflexology the one where each of your actual internal organs or body regions is associated with an actual region on the foot? On the sole of the foot? That's got to be rubbish or I'd feel vastly different whenever I wear different shoes. Of course there's the famous case history of the man who periodically woke up with his shoes still on from yesterday and a terrible headache, but he assumed he was just allergic to leather.Robert Carnegie rja.carnegie@excite.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-7543969086457568562009-12-05T06:04:17.103-08:002009-12-05T06:04:17.103-08:00Tim Minchin has a lovely saying which I'm sure...Tim Minchin has a lovely saying which I'm sure he wouldn't mind me repeating here. "If you open your mind <i>too</i> far, your brain'll fall out".<br /><br />The actual dilemma here appears to be; given the only real benefit shown to complementary medicine is via the placebo effect, is it wise or fair to ban practitioners from lying to their clients, thus denying them the only benefit they may get from the treatment? <br /><br />This is only really applicable for those conditions for which conventional medicine is ineffective or for minor ailments such as sprains which get better by themselves but for which conventional remedies such as aspirin may have uncommon but dangerous side effects; UK government regulation fortunately stops licensing of homeopathic 'remedies' or prophylaxis for serious conditions such as HIV/Malaria.Jon Brayhttp://www.psythe.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-43511235580953226632009-12-05T01:34:38.149-08:002009-12-05T01:34:38.149-08:00Congratulations, but I suspect that the CNHC will ...Congratulations, but I suspect that the CNHC will find that its rules become a little more flexible as it starts to eat it's own tail.<br /><br />@KevinKunz<br />How dare you suggest that the viewpoint that there is no evidence for much of CAM is a closed minded viewpoint. I would suggest that your own view is the closed minded one. Read the Cochrane reviews on Complementary Medicine..they couldn't be any clearer. <br /><br />We would all love it if it turned out that Reflexology et al could do all the things they claim. Unfortunately there's no evidence, so who's the closed minded person?<br /><br />As for the point that people want these therapies, this would be fine if it didn't stop them choosing evidence based therapies, and also be fine if no-one was making any money from promoting therapies which lack evidence for their efficacy. It's just all a bit dodgy and inevitably attracts patients who have discovered that evidence based medicine might not have a solution for their illness and are attracted by the web of lies suggesting that there is help available from CAM. As far as we know there isn't any evidence.<br /><br />@Kevin Kunz<br />Your line 'I love sceptics but only open minded skeptics' is beautifully comical, it's like 'I love girls but only female ones'<br /><br />It's not possible to be skeptical without being open minded, I think you've missed the point. However no worries.... all your learning issues are easily addressed. Just go back to school and get an education before you start spouting off your nonsense on this or any other blog. I know it's soemtimes difficult working out who to believe, but only a little bit of research will lead you in the right direction. Good Luck!Simon Taylornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-67753498612407108532009-12-04T18:50:54.343-08:002009-12-04T18:50:54.343-08:00Someone needs to put you up for a knighthood.
And...Someone needs to put you up for a knighthood.<br /><br />And get Chuckboy to deliver it.Jens Knudsen (Sili)https://www.blogger.com/profile/14078875730565068352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-43604535653614327612009-12-04T15:35:17.623-08:002009-12-04T15:35:17.623-08:00@Kevin:
He is only stopping people from lying. Wh...@Kevin:<br /><br />He is only stopping people from lying. Why do you feel threatened by being unable to claim you have evidence when you have none?<br /><br />What sort of choice is it if you are being lied to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-37548346562159092632009-12-04T14:37:48.094-08:002009-12-04T14:37:48.094-08:00Bravo.
What do you call people who take money from...Bravo.<br />What do you call people who take money from gullible people by telling them lies? Fraudsters? Con artists?<br />I think "telling them to stop lying" is very mild - they should be thrown in prison.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-8077030376045301312009-12-04T13:44:38.810-08:002009-12-04T13:44:38.810-08:00@ Kevin Kunz
I think that protecting vulnerable s...@ Kevin Kunz<br /><br />I think that protecting vulnerable sick people from false health claims is a marvellously constructive activity.<br /><br />Would you be happy if, for example, you were persuaded to invest money at a certain rate of interest, only to find later that you did not actually earn any interest? Would you decry someone who warned you in advance as "destructive"?<br /><br />I do not doubt that many CAM practitioners are interested in the welfare of their clientele - though I think that your choice of wording is instructive, as a doctor I prefer to refer to my "patients" - but we know where the road paved with good intentions leads, if those good intentions are not backed up by good hard fact. And sadly, the high quality CAM research is largely unsupportive of its claims, whereas the research claimed as "proof" by many advocates of CAM is mostly flawed and demonstrates, to be charitable, poor understanding of the nature of reliable scientific evidence.<br /><br />Finally, could you quote where anyone is seeking to deny anyone any service? I can only see a desire that the choice of service should not be based on unreliable claims.<br /><br />Sad to say, but as you imply that you are a CAM practitioner, it is hard not to wonder if the destruction you are most concerned about is of your advertising claims.Dr Jnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-517950245269773562009-12-04T12:31:02.000-08:002009-12-04T12:31:02.000-08:00@ Kevin Kunz
Liar. Lying liar with pants on fire....@ Kevin Kunz<br /><br />Liar. Lying liar with pants on fire.<br /><br />http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31190909/<br /><br />$2.5 billion spent studying CAM. None of it works. So stop lying.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-67327698312556054092009-12-04T12:13:26.970-08:002009-12-04T12:13:26.970-08:00Sad your only aim seems to be to deny others servi...Sad your only aim seems to be to deny others services they desire because you need to defend your rather narrow world view. I love skeptics but only open minded skeptics. Your mind seems to have slammed shut. <br /><br />I feel sorry for you that you are so destructive rather than constructive. Your point is well taken that here are many claims made that are not supported by research And they should stopped. <br /><br />But there is plenty of fine high quality CAM research. And there are many fine practitioners who are interested in the welfare of their clientele. <br /><br />Your goal seems to be some kind of power trip aimed stopping CAM. You won't do it. I doubt you will even slow it down. We won't be shut down nor will we implode in a puff of smoke. <br /><br />My heart goes out to you if this is your life. It seems very futile.Kevin Kunzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13507881298322771191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5959094372836804855.post-23909535454473025182009-12-04T08:15:46.602-08:002009-12-04T08:15:46.602-08:00Nice work xxNice work xxMartyn Norrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06963702886984838442noreply@blogger.com